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Grinding back brakes on car?

Started by Data, February 09, 2011, 12:40:37 PM

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sybershot

Quotebut also the hardware, as well
Only hardware I can think of on disk brakes is the two bolts that hold the caliper in place, Are you referring to them? If so I can argue that point, to a point  :P

DaveMorton

Most disk brake units have either retaining springs/wires or thin backing plates (often called shims) to hold the pads in place, and to reduce vibration, and many have both. There are also tiny dust boots that prevent dust from getting into the slider pins on some models, that can become cracked, thus causing wear and/or allowing dust and dirt to mix with the lubricant, which will cause the calipers to stick, increasing wear to the pads in an uneven manner. The vast majority of disk brake systems have some sort of hardware of the type I've described, in some form or another, and what I'm calling springs never look like what we consider to be "spring-shaped". :)

Normally, you don't need to worry about replacing mounting bolts unless they're damaged in some way.

Just for the sake of proving to Snowy that I can be as pedantic as anyone, here are some illustrating images:


Item #4 is the dust boot I was referring to.


This is one type of "hardware kit" for a disk brake system, from a GMC truck (around 1988 to 2006 {that I know of - maybe even newer, too}), showing dust boots at the top, "Anti-Rattle Clips" next, then Wear Indicator Clips (a.k.a. Squeakers), and finally, Retainer Springs.


Here is what a disk brake shim looks like. It fits between the brake pad and the caliper, and helps to eliminate brake noise, by providing a smoother surface for the parts to rub against during braking actions, thus preventing certain types of oscillations, which can sometimes be heard as brake noise.


In this last image, we see a disk brake hardware kit from a 95 Mazda Protoge', with a retaining spring, 2 sliding pins, 2 anti-rattle clips and 2 retainer clips for the pins.

Now you might think that the springs should last a while, but the truth is, disk brake systems generate a LOT of heat, and that heat damages those springs and retainers over time, causing them to lose their temper, softening them up, and warping them out of shape. This ruins their effectiveness, and allows for excessive vibration, which almost always translates into some sort of noise or another. In the case of retaining clips and/or springs, this can also lead to failure, allowing the brake pad to come loose, or even to fall out, and I'm sure we can ALL see where that could lead. :o
Safe, Reliable Insanity, Since 1961!

sybershot

QuoteItem #4 is the dust boot I was referring to.
I actually did know about this piece, I just forgot about it   :thumbsup:

All the rest of the stuff for different types of vehicles I never knew about, Thanks for the wisdom  :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

QuoteHere is what a disk brake shim looks like.
isn't that what silicon is for  :P


Diesel

I've got to say, I'm simply loving this. It's like being back at my first year of College, fantastic.  :P Before any one even thinks it, yes we did have cars back then with braking systems similar to those described.

However, I must point out that Squeakers have not been fitted to modern European cars since God was a Boy. Could you just imagine what would happen if a metalic object came into contact with a modern vented, grooved disc/rotor.  :'(

Fortunately, technology moves along apace so the need for such aggressive, early warning systems, have been resigned to the scrap bin where they belong. Modern sensors coupled to decent on board 'puter takes care of all these worries.

What this all means though, my industry has had to evolve, particularly within the last five years, to encompass this fast growing technology. Even our diagnostic 'puters need to be faster and more powerful. A decent set-up with most of the soft ware required, will set you back at least £10,000 with annual up-grades IRO £500. So, the next time you take your car in "just for a Diag" and find yourself a Ton out of pocket, now you know why.  :-*

Still, look on the bright side, my nice shiny and very expensive, Snap-on spanners stay nice and shiny because I spend so much time on a Lap-Top, happy day's.  :thumbsup:
It WILL be fine !...

sybershot

Even the the boat industry evolved, to change a fuel injector on a E-Tech one has to connect the outboard engine to a computer that has E-Tech software and designate the new injector with a certain number. If one does not it will not run.

We now have drive by wire designs that allow push button, and remote start ups, along with computerized winterization processes. Now you must bring your engine to a dealer to winterize it, for winter storage  :o
Sometimes I think manufacturers take things a little to far to make a extra buck.

Sure it ensurers the customer that only a Tech will be working on their engine, and not some drunk backyard hack. But I quit my job at the dealers a few years ago to open my own shop, but now I have to turn away some new customers for I don't have the 120, 000 usd to become a authorized dealer just yet, to get a hold of there prioritized computer programs.
And the way the economy is going, it looks like I will not even be able to get a loan from these banksters who are bankrupting the world with it's made up derivatives.  :'(

Diesel

Fully understand where your coming from Syber. Fortunately, here in Europe, all manufacturers are required to release their ECU access codes cutting down on monopolisation, assisting greatly with common fault diagnostics. Some of the commercial vehicles I deal with on a daily bases, have become so electronically complicated that even the CD player is an ECU.  :o
It WILL be fine !...

sybershot

Quotehere in Europe, all manufacturers are required to release their ECU access codes cutting down on monopolisation
Does that go for all outside of Europe manufacturers as well,  like is there a rule where if you don't give the code you can't sell the product within the Europe?

DaveMorton

There have been court cases here in the states that have tried to state that some auto manufacturers, with regard to their electronic control systems (e.g. on-board computers) have violated the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act of 1975, several sections of which limit or prohibit the use of proprietary parts, services and/or techniques from being used as a condition of warranty. In the past, getting your vehicle serviced anywhere other than the dealer, or other "Authorized" service centers would void your car's warranty. The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act made that practice illegal, and these days have forced US auto manufacturers into making things like ECU codes (and even functional and schematic diagrams and specifications of diagnostic ports or connectors) to be made available to the public.

It's my understanding that this is NOT limited to the automotive field, or, at least, shouldn't be.
Safe, Reliable Insanity, Since 1961!

Diesel

The short fall in all of this is when a computer can't tell you what is wrong, that's when mechanical/engineering experience takes over, in short, aptitude. This can't be taught. It's in your Genes, you can simply FEEL what's wrong. Dave and Syber will be able to relate to this. Just by placing your hands on a defective mechanical item, not only can you SEE through your fingers, you can feel where a fault is and instinctively know how to remedy the fault.

I can't explain this, it's just something that we can do, sometimes, occasionally, now and then.
It WILL be fine !...

DaveMorton

All the computers can tell you is that a certain sensor or computed value is out of range, anyway. The old General Motors code 13, for example, tells you that the computer found that the signal from the Oxygen Sensor did not fall within expected measurement values. This could stem from a multitude of causes, from an exhaust leak between the engine and the sensor, a bad wire connection leading from the sensor to the computer, a vacuum leak, a clogged fuel injector (or one that's stuck open), a faulty PCV valve, and so on, and so on. Granted, today's more modern computer systems give much more specific indications of what MIGHT be wrong, but it's still just a starting point. This, of course, means that the modern auto mechanic is becoming more and more like a doctor, having to learn more new skills and techniques, and also has ever more complex and specialized tools that are needed to be able to accurately diagnose problems. Some day, a hundred years or more in the future, when autos become more complex than the Human body, cars (and the AI systems that will control them) may be able to say (yes, "SAY") to the mechanic, "I think my fuel injector in turbine number 2 is malfunctioning." Wouldn't that be cool? :) Not to mention scary! :o
Safe, Reliable Insanity, Since 1961!

sybershot

QuoteThe short fall in all of this is when a computer can't tell you what is wrong, that's when mechanical/engineering experience takes over, in short, aptitude. This can't be taught. It's in your Genes, you can simply FEEL what's wrong. Dave and Syber will be able to relate to this. Just by placing your hands on a defective mechanical item, not only can you SEE through your fingers, you can feel where a fault is and instinctively know how to remedy the fault.

I can't explain this, it's just something that we can do, sometimes, occasionally, now and then.
My wife likes to help me out every now and then, hence the nickname HotRod. I tought her alot over the years, and she is still amazed at how I can tell most of the time what is wrong just by listening to the motor run. I always told her it was years worth of experience, now that she has the years I didn't have the answer till now.  Thanks Diesel now I can tell her,  It's in the GENES baby  ;)

QuoteAll the computers can tell you is that a certain sensor or computed value is out of range, anyway.
This is not the case with an E-Tech, granted we have MEDS
http://www.mareng.co.uk/electronics-evinrude-etec-ficht-outboard-diagnostic-software-5310118b-p-1244.html?osCsid=c27u38leeom3tme507gkk6muh1
but MEDS cannot change the number of a fuel injector, I had to replace the fuel injector only to bring the engine once the work was done to a dealer for them to assign a number. This to me is wrong and,  I wonder if this falls under the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act of 1975 that Dave has pointed to  :scratch-head:

Diesel

One thing that has emerged from all of this is "Real Time" diagnostic's. Having the ability to roll up Data streams has been a distinct advantage. Now all that's required is interpretation.  ;)

Thinking along the the lines of European/American access codes, it would appear that this is a one way stream, given that the American Automotive manufacturing industry own the right's to most of the world, the Protocols can be accessed through various different marques.
It WILL be fine !...

Diesel

The Beast lives again. Having put this off for so long, I've finally got it all sorted. (Disadvantage of having more than one car) Only set me back a couple of hundred quid, a bit of time, mix in a distinct lack of enthusiasm, end result, if I hit the brakes hard enough, she stands on her Head Lights. I just hope the damn thing is grateful.  :P

Now, if I could just find some fuel for sale somewhere.  :scratch-head:
It WILL be fine !...

Data

About time too  :LOL:

Well done mate. 

Time to join the queue for the fuel.