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Solid State drives

Started by Carl2, March 29, 2010, 15:10:12 PM

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Carl2

  I've learned some things during the time we have ben discussing this in the post,  The size of the drive matters in the performance index, an Intel 80 Gb gives a 7.3 and the  Intel 160 gb gives a 7.8. The performance index uses the OS drive to perform the test and storage drives do not matter.  Sata 3 motherboards are out and sata 3 SSD'S are out,  Win 7 can provide trim support for raid configurations.  Prices are dropping  and will continue as the gen 3 SSD's come out.
Carl2

Data

Ok here is a thought.

On an HDD if a part of the drive died you would get a dead sector, doesn't happen much now but we have probably all had them.

So what happens if say one transistor in the memory on an SSD drive fails, does the drive detect a dead part and simply turn it off or does the entire drive fail?

My next quest   ::)

Snowcrash

Veeeeeerrrryyyy interesting...

Just read (most of) the Anandtech review of SSDs. Sounds like they still have a way to go but I do like OCZ's ability to listen to critisism.
I think I'll stick with my HDDs for the moment but it will definitely be factored into my next motherboard choice.
The main thing I notice using a 150GB velociraptor (plus 300GB and 500GB SATA2 drives) is moving 175MB files (south park have a new season out!!). They just move. No window with moving green bar. Just there.
Backup and large storage are my main concerns (external 1TB NAS) but I'll be keeping a more informed eye on SSDs.

"I cannot remember the books I've read any more than the meals I have eaten; even so, they have made me."

Ralph Waldo Emerson

Snowcrash

oh, and carl2

You described a bipolar transister first (current device) and various FET (used in most ICs).

Wow. That took me back a few years to Tech College. Anyone remember h parameters?

A question to anyone...
How many electrons per bit do modern memories use?

Last I read (2-3 years) it was about 1-10 million per bit for RAM. I have no idea for flash but remember the article (new scientist) said they were working on 10,000 per bit. This would have lower power but I think speed generally comes from making everything smaller. That limit must be getting closer. 0.1nm = 1 atom -ish
"I cannot remember the books I've read any more than the meals I have eaten; even so, they have made me."

Ralph Waldo Emerson

Carl2

Datahopa,
  Pretty much the same my logic tells me, if a control arm for a platter dies, that plater is useless,  If a semiconductor for a I/O bus dies the memory that bus controls is useless.  If the head marks the platter, that portion of the plater stops R,W and that portion is marked bad and not used.  If a semiconductor used for memory dies, frist there is error correction, I would think If ECC cannot read it the memory is bad and marked as so.
  Pretty sure that semiconductors used for busses are underrated enough so this is not a problem, the individual memory semi's are not considered as important since there are G's of them, if one fails there is another to take it's place.  Also there is the RW lifetime which they seem to feel is long enough for for the price.  What is the lifetime of a computer?
Snowcrash,
  OCZ entered into the SSD's early in the game so I'd expect thay would run into some of the problems,  I was a bit put off by updating the firmware which I found I had to do with Intel anyway.  Pretty much disgusted by the results of cloning which came with the Intel SSD, be honest and say you need a clean install of Win7 to get good results.
I remember the H parameters, learned all that to be replaced by the simple approxamation.  I'd tried the WD raptors in raid 0, wasn't that impressed by them, again loading time not increased and since I don't move large files not much difference I could see.
During my days digital logic was using  transistors, Linear devices were mostly transistors and thay began being made with Fets for high input impedences. 
Carl2

Data

Thank you for your answer Carl2, I did think that if a part of the SSD dies that the firmware would just turn that part off and from what you say it does seem that way.

I have a feeling that SSD drives will actually last easily the life of a computer, ok there might be some that fail but over all they should be fine for most users. Or like you say the manufacturers wouldn't be making them and selling them. I can't see a company like Intel putting their name on a product only to have it fail early on in its life.

Snowcrash

With bipolar transisters or rtl (reister-transister logic, 74000 series), 1 transister can only drive a few transisters (1-5 ish). With FETs high input impedance (ttl, 4000 series) 1 transister can drive many others, practically unlimited but can easily be destroyed by static.
I have never seen a double gated FET
http://www.anandtech.com/show/2738/5
I guess this is to do with storing 2 bits per transister.

My WD velociraptor is good but I'm not that impressed. Just having a better WEI would make me feel better  ;D
The slowing down of SSDs when they are fully used was new to me but as Anandtech point out they're still way faster then the fastest HDD for most aplications maybe with the exception of the cheap SSDs and full on data throughput.
I'm still wondering how long 10,000 re-writes is in terms of your 'puters life. I'd like to see that figure nearer 100,000.
I also didn't realise USB flash and SSDs suffer with data loss if left for 6 months to 1 year.
"I cannot remember the books I've read any more than the meals I have eaten; even so, they have made me."

Ralph Waldo Emerson

Carl2

  Just saw an article on SSD's and wanted to put a link in:
http://forums.techpowerup.com/showthread.php?t=119543
Datahopa should take a look at it, I'm going to check it again when my other machine is on.
Snowcrash,
  I remember the 7400's RTL TTL, liked the Cmos (complementry metal oxide).
I still have a old RCA Cmos data book around.  I do remember seeing dual gated fets, at the time we used them I think one gate was a siginal and the other gate was for strobing.  Most of my work dealt with analogue circuits and we used operational amplifiers.  I've just switched to using Dragon and I have begun dictating to remove any spelling errors.
  I had wanted to mention while reading an article on solid-state drives it had mentioned that both the solid-state drive and the hard drive becomes slower pace the drive gets full.
  Can anyone remember when the light emitting diode first came out?  Everyone was wondering what the lifetime would be.  My only hope is the lifetime of the solid-state drives will be longer rather than having a disposable solid-state drive.
Carl 2


Data



Quote from: Carl2 on April 08, 2010, 23:09:41 PM
  Just saw an article on SSD's and wanted to put a link in:
http://forums.techpowerup.com/showthread.php?t=119543

Nice find Carl2, very good tips on that page, a must read for anyone with an SSD.

Thanks for finding and posting it.

Snowcrash

Found this snippet at the bottom of the pdf from a previous post on this thread...

"I cannot remember the books I've read any more than the meals I have eaten; even so, they have made me."

Ralph Waldo Emerson

Carl2

  I knew I saw that before, I hate to say this but is it slc or mcl? there is a factor of ten involved.  If anyone in sales saw that the calculations are based on the slc.
The last line of 27 years would be 2.7 years.
Carl2

Snowcrash

That would still be at 320GB/day which would be hammering the hell out of it.

Even heavy usage at 32GB/day would be 23 years. My oldest HDD is 5-6 years old
Hmmm!

I'd still want an intel one
"I cannot remember the books I've read any more than the meals I have eaten; even so, they have made me."

Ralph Waldo Emerson

Carl2

  All of the money in the world brings up many possibilities, SCL is a little faster and lifetime is increased by a factor of 10.  The price is somewhere around double for the same capacity.  I don't believe they are available with Sata 3 at this time.  Another motherboard with Sata 3 would be nice.  Trim support is available for raid now so it is possible to use raid.
  Intel will be releasing the six core processor fairly soon.  Possibly doing a build would be interesting.
Carl 2

Data

Have looked into the 6 cores a bit, its good that Intel are moving forward but I have to say an SSD is going to make a much greater performance boost then the new 6 core CPU.

Still would be a nice rig to have, the latest SSD in raid with a 6 core CPU. Oh for the means to get it.  ::)

Freddy

I would enjoy having the extra 2 cores for rendering, but for the performance gain I doubt I would be able to justify the expense for a long time.