This falls into Diesel's field of expertise, I hope :)
Yeah the back brakes on my car are making a grinding noise when braking, it seems to get better when they have been used for a while, then next day they grind again.
Is it that they are warn out and need replacing, I think they are shoes, not pads.
For information purposes only.
I think your quite right, you do have shoes on the rear of your car. Several things can cause audiable operation from worn out shoes to dust/rust build up. However, if the hand brake is holding on steep road/drive, it could be deemed that the shoes are not completely worn out and if the noise is due debris, a good clean could cure this situation.
It must be stressed though, if you suspect you have problems with the brakes on your car, urgent attention MUST be sought.
After all, if your car won't start, no-one should get hurt, on the other hand, if your car won't stop, well.
Thanks for the well thought out and may I say, professional answer. :sign-great-job:
I will have to get them checked out, like you said.
Cheers mate :thumbsup:
My turn now Data. :-[ :innocent:
I've known for a little while that my O/S/F brake has been binding and I thought "I must take a look at that". Well now I have, the whole lot is knackered, Pads, Disc, Caliper the lot, nice. To be honest, the only reason I took a look now was because a Turbo pipe burst and thought I would inspect the brakes whilst I'm at it.
Same old, same old, if someone ask's for advise, we always say "you must do this or that NOW otherwise it's going to cost you a lot of money". Sheesh.
To reiterate, never, ever buy a Mechanic's Car. :no-no:
Ooh, ooh, just a thought, do I get a spell in klink for being a major league MUPPET. ::)
Yeah, that is pretty bad of you Diesel
I remember a wise mechanic once telling me.
"The brakes are the most important part of the vehicle"
To neglect them is possibly the worst thing you could have done.
Agreed, sin bin for you :o.
Sorry to ear about that Diesel , Hope the repairs do not cost you much.
Having been an auto mechanic for nearly half my life, I feel the same way, in that the braking system is the most important part of the car. If the car can't go, that's bad; but if the car can't stop, that's far, far worse!
I had always done almost all the work on my cars in the past, now I don't seem to have as much time, and have been going to a mechanic, he married my cousin. The thing I remember is bad rotors, I described the problem and he told me to replace the rotors which I did ( from a junkyard ) and it fixed the problem for about 6 to 9 months. When the problem came back I brought it back to him and let him do the work. He put new rotors in, went throught the whole brake system and returned the car, it was like it was a new car, couldn't be better.
Carl2
I know, I know that's why I'm in Klink and rightly so. I knew there was a problem about nine months ago, but, it comes down to the same thing, "don't do as I do, do as I tell you".
Yeah, it's going to cost me a few quid/dollars, but, it's only money. I came into this world with nowt and I'll go out with the same.
Dave, as a fellow mechanic, you can't tell me that you haven't been aware of a fault, knowing what is wrong and thought, "that will be alright for awhile yet".
Sorry all, I'm just trying to justify my own Muppetry, failing badly. :'(
On the advice of counsel, I respectfully refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't want to lie to my friends. :)
(this remark is probably funnier if you're aware of the 5th amendment to the U.S. constitution, which grants freedom from self incrimination in court.)
As a boat technician, I feel that steering is more important than brakes. Without steering you cannot control your destination. I would like to ask for the possibility of parole for my friend Diesel on the grounds that A boat has no brakes :P
Thought I'd add this, on the front wheels the manufacturer may have a small metal tab that will scrape against the router when the pads are thin, time to replace the pads. If the pads use rivits to hold them the rivits will grind away the routers so try to get pads without rivits. On the rear wheels it is a matter of taking off the wheel and removing the drum, sometimes difficult if a ridge has built up on the inside edge or the drum has rusted in place. If you do it every so often it's easy but If it has not been done in ages it could be hard. anyways once the drum is off it's easy to look at the shoes once you remove the dust. Stay away from oil and grease, any oil or grease on the shoes or inner surface of the drum ruins everything, it needs friction to work.
Carl2
That's a handy tip right there, DON'T LUBRICATE YOUR BRAKES. Thanks Carl2, I've made a note of that and will refer to it often. :thumbsup:
On vehicles with semi-metallic disk brake pads, or even the newer ceramic pads, you can also hear a grinding sound from the brakes if they're "clogged" with brake dust, or if the retaining hardware for the pads is worn and/or loose. More and more often, these days, it's prudent not only to change the brake pads when they wear out, but also the hardware, as well, and yet some mechanics (and many, many "do it yourself~ers") fail to do so and wonder why their brakes are noisy after only a week or so. I'm all for vehicle owners maintaining their own cars, but they REALLY need to learn how to do the entire job, which is something that a great many folks fail to do.
Quotebut also the hardware, as well
Only hardware I can think of on disk brakes is the two bolts that hold the caliper in place, Are you referring to them? If so I can argue that point, to a point :P
Most disk brake units have either retaining springs/wires or thin backing plates (often called shims) to hold the pads in place, and to reduce vibration, and many have both. There are also tiny dust boots that prevent dust from getting into the slider pins on some models, that can become cracked, thus causing wear and/or allowing dust and dirt to mix with the lubricant, which will cause the calipers to stick, increasing wear to the pads in an uneven manner. The vast majority of disk brake systems have some sort of hardware of the type I've described, in some form or another, and what I'm calling springs never look like what we consider to be "spring-shaped". :)
Normally, you don't need to worry about replacing mounting bolts unless they're damaged in some way.
Just for the sake of proving to Snowy that I can be as pedantic as anyone, here are some illustrating images:
(http://www.justanswer.com/uploads/GMFRANK/2008-06-03_025953_brake2.gif)
Item #4 is the dust boot I was referring to.
(http://www.autopartswarehouse.com/images/apw_products/images/centric/ce117.67007.jpg)
This is one type of "hardware kit" for a disk brake system, from a GMC truck (around 1988 to 2006 {that I know of - maybe even newer, too}), showing dust boots at the top, "Anti-Rattle Clips" next, then Wear Indicator Clips (a.k.a. Squeakers), and finally, Retainer Springs.
(http://chinozie.googlepages.com/brake_pad_shim.JPG)
Here is what a disk brake shim looks like. It fits between the brake pad and the caliper, and helps to eliminate brake noise, by providing a smoother surface for the parts to rub against during braking actions, thus preventing certain types of oscillations, which can sometimes be heard as brake noise.
(http://images.wrenchead.com/smartpages/partinfo_resize/DUS/18K412.gif)
In this last image, we see a disk brake hardware kit from a 95 Mazda Protoge', with a retaining spring, 2 sliding pins, 2 anti-rattle clips and 2 retainer clips for the pins.
Now you might think that the springs should last a while, but the truth is, disk brake systems generate a LOT of heat, and that heat damages those springs and retainers over time, causing them to lose their temper, softening them up, and warping them out of shape. This ruins their effectiveness, and allows for excessive vibration, which almost always translates into some sort of noise or another. In the case of retaining clips and/or springs, this can also lead to failure, allowing the brake pad to come loose, or even to fall out, and I'm sure we can ALL see where that could lead. :o
QuoteItem #4 is the dust boot I was referring to.
I actually did know about this piece, I just forgot about it :thumbsup:
All the rest of the stuff for different types of vehicles I never knew about, Thanks for the wisdom :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
QuoteHere is what a disk brake shim looks like.
isn't that what silicon is for :P
I've got to say, I'm simply loving this. It's like being back at my first year of College, fantastic. :P Before any one even thinks it, yes we did have cars back then with braking systems similar to those described.
However, I must point out that Squeakers have not been fitted to modern European cars since God was a Boy. Could you just imagine what would happen if a metalic object came into contact with a modern vented, grooved disc/rotor. :'(
Fortunately, technology moves along apace so the need for such aggressive, early warning systems, have been resigned to the scrap bin where they belong. Modern sensors coupled to decent on board 'puter takes care of all these worries.
What this all means though, my industry has had to evolve, particularly within the last five years, to encompass this fast growing technology. Even our diagnostic 'puters need to be faster and more powerful. A decent set-up with most of the soft ware required, will set you back at least £10,000 with annual up-grades IRO £500. So, the next time you take your car in "just for a Diag" and find yourself a Ton out of pocket, now you know why. :-*
Still, look on the bright side, my nice shiny and very expensive, Snap-on spanners stay nice and shiny because I spend so much time on a Lap-Top, happy day's. :thumbsup:
Even the the boat industry evolved, to change a fuel injector on a E-Tech one has to connect the outboard engine to a computer that has E-Tech software and designate the new injector with a certain number. If one does not it will not run.
We now have drive by wire designs that allow push button, and remote start ups, along with computerized winterization processes. Now you must bring your engine to a dealer to winterize it, for winter storage :o
Sometimes I think manufacturers take things a little to far to make a extra buck.
Sure it ensurers the customer that only a Tech will be working on their engine, and not some drunk backyard hack. But I quit my job at the dealers a few years ago to open my own shop, but now I have to turn away some new customers for I don't have the 120, 000 usd to become a authorized dealer just yet, to get a hold of there prioritized computer programs.
And the way the economy is going, it looks like I will not even be able to get a loan from these banksters who are bankrupting the world with it's made up derivatives. :'(
Fully understand where your coming from Syber. Fortunately, here in Europe, all manufacturers are required to release their ECU access codes cutting down on monopolisation, assisting greatly with common fault diagnostics. Some of the commercial vehicles I deal with on a daily bases, have become so electronically complicated that even the CD player is an ECU. :o
Quotehere in Europe, all manufacturers are required to release their ECU access codes cutting down on monopolisation
Does that go for all outside of Europe manufacturers as well, like is there a rule where if you don't give the code you can't sell the product within the Europe?
There have been court cases here in the states that have tried to state that some auto manufacturers, with regard to their electronic control systems (e.g. on-board computers) have violated the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act of 1975 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson%E2%80%93Moss_Warranty_Act), several sections of which limit or prohibit the use of proprietary parts, services and/or techniques from being used as a condition of warranty. In the past, getting your vehicle serviced anywhere other than the dealer, or other "Authorized" service centers would void your car's warranty. The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act made that practice illegal, and these days have forced US auto manufacturers into making things like ECU codes (and even functional and schematic diagrams and specifications of diagnostic ports or connectors) to be made available to the public.
It's my understanding that this is NOT limited to the automotive field, or, at least, shouldn't be.
The short fall in all of this is when a computer can't tell you what is wrong, that's when mechanical/engineering experience takes over, in short, aptitude. This can't be taught. It's in your Genes, you can simply FEEL what's wrong. Dave and Syber will be able to relate to this. Just by placing your hands on a defective mechanical item, not only can you SEE through your fingers, you can feel where a fault is and instinctively know how to remedy the fault.
I can't explain this, it's just something that we can do, sometimes, occasionally, now and then.
All the computers can tell you is that a certain sensor or computed value is out of range, anyway. The old General Motors code 13, for example, tells you that the computer found that the signal from the Oxygen Sensor did not fall within expected measurement values. This could stem from a multitude of causes, from an exhaust leak between the engine and the sensor, a bad wire connection leading from the sensor to the computer, a vacuum leak, a clogged fuel injector (or one that's stuck open), a faulty PCV valve, and so on, and so on. Granted, today's more modern computer systems give much more specific indications of what MIGHT be wrong, but it's still just a starting point. This, of course, means that the modern auto mechanic is becoming more and more like a doctor, having to learn more new skills and techniques, and also has ever more complex and specialized tools that are needed to be able to accurately diagnose problems. Some day, a hundred years or more in the future, when autos become more complex than the Human body, cars (and the AI systems that will control them) may be able to say (yes, "SAY") to the mechanic, "I think my fuel injector in turbine number 2 is malfunctioning." Wouldn't that be cool? :) Not to mention scary! :o
QuoteThe short fall in all of this is when a computer can't tell you what is wrong, that's when mechanical/engineering experience takes over, in short, aptitude. This can't be taught. It's in your Genes, you can simply FEEL what's wrong. Dave and Syber will be able to relate to this. Just by placing your hands on a defective mechanical item, not only can you SEE through your fingers, you can feel where a fault is and instinctively know how to remedy the fault.
I can't explain this, it's just something that we can do, sometimes, occasionally, now and then.
My wife likes to help me out every now and then, hence the nickname HotRod. I tought her alot over the years, and she is still amazed at how I can tell most of the time what is wrong just by listening to the motor run. I always told her it was years worth of experience, now that she has the years I didn't have the answer till now. Thanks Diesel now I can tell her, It's in the GENES baby ;)
QuoteAll the computers can tell you is that a certain sensor or computed value is out of range, anyway.
This is not the case with an E-Tech, granted we have MEDS
http://www.mareng.co.uk/electronics-evinrude-etec-ficht-outboard-diagnostic-software-5310118b-p-1244.html?osCsid=c27u38leeom3tme507gkk6muh1 (http://www.mareng.co.uk/electronics-evinrude-etec-ficht-outboard-diagnostic-software-5310118b-p-1244.html?osCsid=c27u38leeom3tme507gkk6muh1)
but MEDS cannot change the number of a fuel injector, I had to replace the fuel injector only to bring the engine once the work was done to a dealer for them to assign a number. This to me is wrong and, I wonder if this falls under the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act of 1975 that Dave has pointed to :scratch-head:
One thing that has emerged from all of this is "Real Time" diagnostic's. Having the ability to roll up Data streams has been a distinct advantage. Now all that's required is interpretation. ;)
Thinking along the the lines of European/American access codes, it would appear that this is a one way stream, given that the American Automotive manufacturing industry own the right's to most of the world, the Protocols can be accessed through various different marques.
The Beast lives again. Having put this off for so long, I've finally got it all sorted. (Disadvantage of having more than one car) Only set me back a couple of hundred quid, a bit of time, mix in a distinct lack of enthusiasm, end result, if I hit the brakes hard enough, she stands on her Head Lights. I just hope the damn thing is grateful. :P
Now, if I could just find some fuel for sale somewhere. :scratch-head:
About time too :LOL:
Well done mate.
Time to join the queue for the fuel.